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EHBPC 2013: thread 2

(I hope the thread one hasn't been locked because of this particulary subject)

I agree with some of the players who asked : please don't do that in June. Many players won't be able to come.

Hooks | Rouen Bike Polo.

No... sorry it just takes too long to load threads once they have so many comments.

"it's not easy to ensure 300 people to be avalaibale at the same time" => yes it is if you host your tourney during the summer holidays (which are the same everywhere) it's really basic.

So yes, the sooner we know wich dates in july or august, the better ;)

Ok , In my opinion, community should think how many weeks before tournament day, the final date should be known. For example - 8 weeks etc etc.
Then we will know how long can we wait for other dates proposed by footbal club, and if there will be no other dates (until the deadline ) we just need to give up the hope and do it in June :)

Pajac, The Beardless

Yes, this is a really difficult time for many people. I am a teacher and all my students have their exams in June, so it is very difficult for teachers and students to go in June...

I will say that having the EHBPC three and a half months before the Worlds is VERY long. It would be better to see the Euros in August...

I hope that we can find a date that is suitable for most everyone. Late June is just not a date that suits many people...

Let's hope Krakow can at least propose an alternative date. I know it's difficult and we really appreciate your efforts. Thanks guys!!!

Brick Chesterfield wrote:

I will say that having the EHBPC three and a half months before the Worlds is VERY long. It would be better to see the Euros in August...

I think it's a good argument. In 3 months many teams can evolve. A teammate may leave the team and a team can be better than another. etc..

The thing is, even if there are more french than other players who tell that it's gonna be difficult for them to play in end of june, the problem is still here. It would be stupid to play EHBPC without french teams as it would be stupid to play ehbpc without UK, spanish or else.. (and by the way, 2 teams in the top3 last year..).

Try to put as much team as you can in your tourney.

Hooks | Rouen Bike Polo.

Is it just me or am I only seeing people from France being concerned about the date? I see a lot of comments saying that June does not suit many people and that holidays are the same everywhere but I only see people from France making those comments. Is it really true that holidays are the same everywhere? Or does it only really matter in France?

Or maybe it's just because french players cares about these discussions...

Could we have a list of summer holidays from other european countries ???

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

UK:

School: 24 July 2013 – 1 September 2013
Work: No specific time
University: Usually late May to Mid September.

So in the UK the only people it would affect are those with kids in school. I can't think of any top UK players who have kids of that age.

As some people might find it difficult to attend in June, is there anything we can do as a community/clubs that will help Krakow potentially reschedule the dates later in the summer. Or is it all down to the football club?

Yes we'll do anything to help if we can move those dates a bit later

Summer holidays are not the same everywhere in europe, eventhough august might be good for most people. I think I am one of the few who would prefer late june because of my holidays.
In Germany in general school holidays are a little bit different in each state.

I worked in Academia around Europe and summer holidays are different everywhere, for example a big portion of Universities start as early as mid August because the "summer holidays" start early June ;), variation also occurs depending on your field of study. For teachers it is another story but a "good" student is not bound to the "holidays" of their institute.

DutchMaster PhD.

Anyway, Krakow should do what's best for them, not what's best for some students, or anybody else.

I sometimes got the feeling that we loose the "big picture" here...

Team Sophie - Switzerland

Well done Krakow im sure you'll do a great job. As for dates knowing a solid date is more important than potentially having a more agreeable date, i know train prices stay the same and a lot of people will be able to drive or go by train. But those people around Europe who have to fly need to get tickets as soon as possible as these go up in price the closer to the date you by them

Giv I agree with you but if Krakow can do it in the summer (everybody knows it's better for the majority) AND can have more time to organize it, why couldn't we ask for it ??

If it's not good at all for Krakow, then we should shut our mouths, I'm ok. But THEY first proposed "late june, july or august", so there is still a possibility for these months.

They will just win time to organize it better... Anyways, the last word will be for Krakow, but it will be sad to hurry on a date if a better one is still possible.

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

I'm not saying that you should shut up. Simply, I worry about krakow's comfort and quietness in the organisation process, and I know that it is very time and energy consuming when guys start mixing in this process. My comment just said this. As badger already said it, guys who work don't care about when, they just want to know as soon as possible. That is another point. So, if these two points sart lobying like some of us do it here it, will not help krakow. Please, stop talking of majority because we have no statistics about who plays polo, their working status etc. I'll stop worrying about how krakow feels about this thread, as this is not my business.

Team Sophie - Switzerland

thanks for thinking about us

Another point is:
The sooner EHBPC happens, the sooner we know what teams qualify for WHBPC, the sooner they can buy "cheap" tickets...

This part of the Euro organisation, dealing with complaining and dates issues is always part of the job ( look at every other thread taking about importants tourney). "with great power comes great responsability".
People who can't come to these dates will try to move them; all this is legit.

Krakow is still free to do whatever they want.

About june is better to book flights for florida, regarding to how many people move across sea every year to tourney, plus how many teams florida can handle with so many court, allocating spot for euros teams able to move there in october zon t be an issue, im pretty sur it will be this year like last year and the year before and the one before, if want to go there, you can.

  • with-great-power-comes-great-responsibility-spider-man.jpeg

We'll know if the Euros can happen in August around April. that's the usual month when the football schedule for the August matches is announced. there is a remote possilibity there will be a match every weekend of August and then we're pretty fucked :-).

BTW: how was the wildcard organised last year? swiss + double elim?

how do you guys feel about straight double elim?

It was just Swiss. Double Elim doesn't really make any sense for deciding anything except the top 2 teams, it's not good for producing a sorted list. Swiss isn't that good at it either (ok for top and bottom, not middle), but it's better than DE.

John H wrote:

It was just Swiss. Double Elim doesn't really make any sense for deciding anything except the top 2 teams, it's not good for producing a sorted list. Swiss isn't that good at it either (ok for top and bottom, not middle), but it's better than DE.

how about double elim in small pools, let's say 8 teams each? top 2 advance?

krzyyy wrote:
John H wrote:

It was just Swiss. Double Elim doesn't really make any sense for deciding anything except the top 2 teams, it's not good for producing a sorted list. Swiss isn't that good at it either (ok for top and bottom, not middle), but it's better than DE.

how about double elim in small pools, let's say 8 teams each? top 2 advance?

how would you put these pools together? who decides how strong a team is and by what standards? I think small grouping brings a lot of luck with it.

No.

I would leave the format of the wildcard, until you've got the parameters decided. How many teams, how many courts, how long, etc, and then come up with the format that will be most accurate (It's only the wildcard, people will understand it won't be perfect, but DE isn't the answer).

For example, will you do it like Paris, and have a set number of teams from each country?
Will you do it like Geneva, and have a first-come-first-serve wildcard?
Or just for anyone who turns up?

Also have many qualifying matters. If you only have 2 teams going through, DE is fine. If you have 30 teams, and 10 spots, then maybe look at 3 round robin groups, or something.

So guys, when the dates will be "official" ?

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

More dates less talk! But seriously I cannot wait for this.

#Polofad

So when we gonna have dates confirmed so we can start booking our tickets...Thank you paka pa

Update: Today we're seeing the person we're talking to at the sports club. Therefore might be able to convince them to push our date as far into July as possible. Keep your fingers x'd.
The June date is no good for most of the people, myself being one of them (It's gonna be really difficult for me too!)

Fingers crossed !

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

That's great !! hope you'll be abble to move it so we can all have a blast this summer in Kracow !!

So any news about moving the date ...?

So far the date we're focusing on June 28th - 30th. At the same time though, we're giving ourselves until the end of next week to try and lobby for the July 12th - 14th date. If we don't succeed, the June date will become official.

Ok cool this is good. Goodluck with that I hope something concrete can be pencilled then arrangements can be made. Good work krakow!

thanks man, 12th of July would be ace ! we'll see next week

Thanks guys! You have to know that talking to Wisla (soccer club) is really difficult. We haven't gained their respect yet, however we did all we could to look legitimate: endorsements from polo clubs across Europe, from the City etc.
They're trying to persuade us they _might_ have games in July, but we did our homework and the chance it happens is around 5 %....

I´d also prefer later date but don´t think it will be too much of a problem if not. Remember EHBPC 2011 was also in late June...

Question: who owns EHBPC.ORG and does it travel along with the Euros?

We can come up with different alias if needed, e.g. *.pl, *.info etc...

Europe owns it (although London is paying for it each year on behalf of the Euro community) and yes.

You can either setup this year's event as ehbpc.org/2013 and use a redirect on ehbpc.org or you can work within the root directly.

France conveniently used ehbpc.org/2012 last year with the redirect which I think works well.

I didn't know that.
THANK YOU LONDON!

The Bisons;

the championships will take place during the last weekend of june. this is final.

the day is really long around those dates, so we'll be able to play till late evening.

now, we're considering two options. both use 3 courts:

a) 48 teams: three swiss groups of 16 playing on saturday. 10 teams advacing from each group + 2 with the best score into a 32 team double elimination on sunday. huge cuts in slots to allow a big wildcard (I guess around 32 teams - with top8 / top10 advancing) on friday.

b) 64 teams: four groups of 16: one playing on friday evening, three playing on saturday. 8 teams advancing from each group into a 32 team double elimination sunday. a slightly smaller wildcard (around 16-24 teams - with 8 teams advancing) on friday.

please give your opinions.

A little update!

a) 48 teams: three swiss groups of 16 playing on saturday. 10 teams advacing from each group + 2 with the best score into a 32 team double elimination on sunday. huge cuts in slots to allow a big wildcard (I guess around 32 teams - with top8 / top10 advancing) on friday.

b) 64 teams: four groups of 16: one playing on friday evening, three playing on saturday. 8 teams advancing from each group into a 32 team double elimination sunday. a slightly smaller wildcard (around 16-24 teams - with 8 teams advancing) on friday.

c) 60 teams : 3 groups of 20 teams: 5 games swissrounds for every group. If there will be a time problems we can start to play some rounds on friday evening - or ( probably better way ) - play some games at friday morning . From every 20teams group, 10of them will get promotion to the sunday double-elim, + 2 teams with the best scores outside the top 10s will be promoted too.

Please lest us know what are you opinions. We want to decide about the format as soon as possible :)

Pajac, The Beardless

Before I answer that, I need to ask a couple of questions.

Firstly, what format is the wildcard.

1) Slots allocated to each country (so really a 1st round, rather than a wildcard)
2) First-come-first-serve
3) Whoever turns up can play.

Is there any option of doing the wildcard on Thursday? The NAHBPC 2012 and WHBPC 2012 format was great, 48 teams in 2 groups one day, then a top group and lower group the next day, and then the elim on the third day. It would be nice to replicate that.

How many courts? How many hours each day?

Also, 16 teams in a group really isn't enough for effective Swiss rankings, less bigger groups will make it a lot more accurate.

1) Courts number was mentioned in the previous post ( 3 courts)
2) We are sure that we will be able to play 12hours a day (8am - 20pm (extra hours are like security buffers))
3) We think that 48 teams is the worst option - why? We want to allocate at least 1 slot to every country, and in our opinion we are able to play tournament in 64 teams format ( 4 groups x 16 teams - 5 swiss rounds in every group -> friday(night)/saturday/sunday(morning) <- we have many options. And then 32 teams double elimination)
4) Wildcard - we must think about format - but in my opinion - first come first serve - is not an option - any ideas?

Pajac, The Beardless

It looks impossible to handle groupe games on sunday morning then a double elim' on the afternoon with 32 teams.
With 64 teams you gonna have to play 3 complete days I think, 2,5 days is not enough.

64 teams: four groups of 16: one playing on friday evening, three playing on saturday. 8 teams advancing from each group into a 32 team double elimination sunday. a slightly smaller wildcard (around 16-24 teams - with 8 teams advancing) on friday.

In this option - ( we think about 5 swiss rounds per 16 teams group ) - we need to play about 3.5 h for each group . We've assumed that one 10 minute game will take 15 minutes of real time. This gives us about 14 hours to play - so.. if we play one group at friday and 3 groups at saturday everything should be ok
What do you think about it?

I was thinking about dividing 64 teams in 2 groups (32) and divide games of one group in two days (friday 16-20 o'clock and saturday ) but there are two problems:
1) 1.5 hour rest between games
2) Wildcard promoted teams won't have time to rest between wildcard and the tournament.

PS.
Sachs spot distribution is perfect for this option - and if there will be no teams from countries like (Finland, Turkey etc) we will just transfer their spots to the wildcard

Pajac, The Beardless

Hi to you both (don't know your real names actually),

First of all, thanks again to the KRK Bike Polo crew for all the work done so far and to give us now final dates!
Will be very happy to come to Kraków for EHBPC 2013, fingers crossed, because June is also more tricky for me than July, but that's life, you cannot make everyone happy and have to make hard choices, so you can go on!

Personally, because we're are in Krakow and the EHBPC 2013 could therefore become a big meeting for whole Europe, bringing together East and West, my favours goes to the most inclusive option, also 64 teams, after the more restrictive Euros (48 teams) in Paris last year.
So, we could state as principle that, independently of the number of teams and slot allocation, 1 slot at least should go to each country. In another post, you counted 23 countries in Europe. Fair enough, but I have my doubts if e.g. Finland, Luxemburg, Norway, Serbia and Turkey will really send teams. IMO, you should go with the principle "1 slot to every country who wants to enter", but on the other hand, it will make it difficult to predict and restrict the number of teams from the wild card (especially if you go with 48 teams). At the end, it depends of your possibilities regarding the number of days, courts, and other factors, but mainly also of the format for the wild card and of course, of the slot allocation for each country. As always the spot allocation will be a tricky process and no doubt everyone will feel hard done by it!

About reflecting last point, and going through all the discussions we had already about this subject (how dear..), I want to react briefly to your post #6 from 20 March 2013 in another thread, where you presented your favored system (with 60 teams):
http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/tournaments/2013/03/20/ehbp-slots-dist...

I don't want to go here in all details, more generally, what you presented in this post seems for me completely rationale, based on last year's allocation by Paris (I don't know if you're still considering according one organizer's slot and one slot to last year European Champions' country). But at the end it's just one logic, taking in account last year's results is another interesting option.

From a "personal point of view", you may consider in the (how so difficult) allocation process to split up, like you want to make for UK/Ireland, Spain/Portugal and PACHC, the BeNeLux qualifier as well to allow slots to Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg individually.

Anyway, I come to my conclusion, I made quickly following allocation for 64 Teams (it's just a proposition, guys),
following a combination of different logics (all-inclusive, last year's results, number of competitive teams in countries):

8 teams (1 country)
France = 8 teams


7 teams (1 c.)
United Kingdom = 7 teams


6 teams (1 c.)
Germany = 6 teams


4 teams (1 c.)
Switzerland = 4 teams


3 teams (3 c.)
Italy = 3 teams

Spain = 3 teams

Poland (host country) = 3 teams


2 teams (3 c.)
Belgium = 2 teams

Hungary = 2 teams

Ireland = 2 teams


1 team 
(15 c.)
Austria = 1 team

Croatia = 1 team
Czech Republic = 1 team

Denmark = 1 team

Finland ( ?) = 1 team
Latvia = 1 team

Luxemburg ( ?) = 1 team
Netherlands = 1 team
Norway ( ?) = 1 team
Portugal = 1 team

Romania = 1 team

Serbia ( ?) = 1 team
Slovakia = 1 team

Turkey ( ?) = 1 team
Ukraine = 1 team

1 organizer's wild card

WILDCARD tourney (if possible, open for every team who shows up like in Berlin WHBPC 2010) = 8 slots
(+ eventually each free slot from above)
= 64 teams

OK, I have to stop here, just a few thoughts I wanted to share with you all, let's discuss and keep up the good work, cheers!
Sacha

Portugal + Spain = Iberian championship, we want to stay togheter!

Portugal and Spain can still play together in the Iberian Championship but the three first spanish teams and the first portuguese team can be qualified ;)

For the format, my opinion is the same as John, last year was great : 48 teams in 2 groups one day, then a top group and lower group the next day, and then the elim on the third day.
If you made a 64 teams, just for playing 5 games in 3 days for the majority of teams, it's not very nice.
With 56 teams and 3 courts, you can host a very nice tournament, with lots of polo. And I would prefer to play more polo and get one less slots for big countries.

Thanks Sacha for your slots distribution, I remake it with 56 (two groups of 28, then top group 20 teams and lower group 36 teams, then top 32 double elim) :

7 teams (1 country)
France = 7 teams


6 teams (1 c.)
United Kingdom = 6 teams


5 teams (1 c.)
Germany = 5 teams


4 teams (1 c.)
Switzerland = 4 teams


3 teams (2 c.)
Italy = 3 teams

Spain = 3 teams



2 teams (4 c.)
Belgium = 2 teams

Hungary = 2 teams

Ireland = 2 teams

Poland = 2 teams (+1 for hosting)

1 team 
(10 c.) if some of these countries are not playing, give the slot to the wildcard.
Austria = 1 team

Croatia = 1 team
Czech Republic = 1 team

Denmark = 1 team

Latvia = 1 team

Netherlands = 1 team
Portugal = 1 team

Romania = 1 team

Slovakia = 1 team

Ukraine = 1 team

+ 1 team for the hosting country
+ 1 team for the last european champions
+ 8 slots for the wild card.

DO THEY REALLY PLAY POLO ??? If yes, take a slot from the wildcard.
Finland ( ?) = 1 team
Turkey ( ?) = 1 team
Serbia ( ?) = 1 team
Luxemburg ( ?) = 1 team
Norway ( ?) = 1 team

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

That looks perfect to me.

1 team for Portugal? Wow!

Hello everybody. First of all congrats to Krakow for the willpower and inspiration of setting an event like the euros. Merci Sachs et Polo for the slot distribution suggestion.
I am not sure where the slot distribution discussion stands at this point but, untill it's set to stone we keep on the idea to fight for a place in the sun at the Iberico 11 and 12 of May in Zaragoza, of course.
However, in behalf of every portuguese team, we would rather go to the automatic slot.

Thanx
Obrigado
Miguel Reis

I think most people have accepted that giving every country a spot is important for the future (just as having the best teams there is also important).

By all means do a unified qualifying tournament, I don't think anyone wants to stop you guys playing together, if that's what works for you, just give the highest placing Portugese team the spot.

This is just my opinion, not anything official.

Hi! Do I understand correctly that we in Ukraine get 1 team in the main tournament and 1 team in wildcard?
And whom must I contact to get more information?

Ok. Polo thank you for help :)

If we will have 3 days for main tournament (4th day for wc) it won't be a big difference to host 64 teams, not 56 :P ( and then divide teams in 2 group 22 and 32 or 20 and 34)
For 2(and 1/3) days of main tournament - we will still try to host as many teams as it is possible.... 56 teams and 6 swissrounds (2x28group) during friday evening / saturday <- seems to be good option, isn't it ?

So ... in my opinion - the main steps that we should make now:

1) We need to wait for final club decision ( it's positive for sure , but we need to know if we will have all the space for 5(3 days to play) or 6 days (4 days to play) <- big impact on tournament format
2) We need to push countries to express their will to play in EHBPC , and set a deadline for it:
a) Do you think that LOBP is good place to expect their will manifestation ?
b) IMO - deadline should be an end of April ( but it is just my idea - not final decision - we need to talk it over in BPCK )
Of course we should decide on format and spot distribution as soon as it is possible ( right after football club decision (5 or 6 days of space renting)). Then if we will have respond from all the countries we will modify the format a little, depending on released spots number ( give some extra slot to organizer :P , expand a wildcard, or make 60 teams tournament not 64 for example )

sorry for all the questions <- but we think that all the community should have some impact (of course limited by us as organizer ) on the EHBPC format.

Pajac, The Beardless

Pajac wrote:

If we will have 3 days for main tournament (4th day for wc) it won't be a big difference to host 64 teams, not 56 :P ( and then divide teams in 2 group 22 and 32 or 20 and 34)
For 2(and 1/3) days of main tournament - we will still try to host as many teams as it is possible.... 56 teams and 6 swissrounds (2x28group) during friday evening / saturday <- seems to be good option, isn't it ?

You might consider the WHBPC format from 2012, http://whbpc2012.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Programme_joueur_finaleW... , which was based on NAHBPC 2010:

This is what it might look like for 60 teams:

Day 1: Morning group 30 teams, afternoon group 30 teams. Top 10 from each group play in Group B on Day 2, everyone else plays in Group A on Day 2.
Day 2: Group A 40 of teams, Group B with 20 teams.
Day 3: 32 team double elim. Group B gets seeds 1-20, Group A gets seeds 21-32.

The advantage with this format is that the podium teams will have played each other at least once before Day 3. And most of the top 8 teams will have played each other once, too. It also makes for exciting polo on Saturday afternoon when there are a lot of spectators.

Oh and Podium supports this format (it even did back at NAHBPC 2010!)

+1

^ This ^

+1

Pajac wrote:

a) Do you think that LOBP is good place to expect their will manifestation ?

Important detail.
As we based the presumed number of countries on the clubs (and therefore countries) registred on LOBP, and as we have nothing better and more open than this site, we should do it here, except you want to make it by sending an email to the organisation's committee.
IMO a country should have a kind of transparent and comprehensible organization/manifestation process documented somewhere for the public, e.g. here on LOBP, by posting the qualifiers tourney announcement and list of participating teams or giving the alternative way of allocation by the country's representative.

Sach' wrote:

, we should do it here, except you want to make it by sending an email to the organisation's committee.
IMO a country should have a kind of transparent and comprehensible organization/manifestation process documented somewhere for the public, e.g. here on LOBP, by posting the qualifiers tourney announcement and list of participating teams or giving the alternative way of allocation by the country's representative.

This could be very simple, just a separate, single "EHBPC 2013 qualification by country" thread where each country posts its qualification process, teams, and results. People should post their qualifier tournament(s) to the tournament page too, even if they are not open to the rest of the world.

If you have 3 days for main tournament on 3 courts, 48 teams is perfect and better than 56 teams, 56 teams is better than 64. So pick the middle ;)
56 teams is already HUGE, and we don't count the wildcard in this number. I think 48 teams is the minimum for an EHBPC and I also think that we should really focus on quality and quantity of bike polo.
I don't know how much people will help from Krakow Bike Polo Club but as I said, 56 teams to host is already a very very hard work. French expression : "n'aillez pas les yeux plus gros que le ventre" ;)

If you are really motivated, I think you should make a better/bigger wildcard and don't go over 56 teams. 8 slots for wildcard is great so I'm sure teams will come in Krakow for that.

@ Astérix : yes Ukraine's champions get 1 slot for the main tournament, but I think if 1 or 2 or 3 ukrainian teams want to play the wildcard, they could. We don't know if the wildcard will be an open or not yet (I think it should be).

And Pajac for sure you need to put a deadline for pushing countries to wake up. End of april seems very good to me because EHBPC is in less than 3 months !!

Day 1 : BIG OPEN WILDCARD
Day 2 : 2 balanced groups (A & B) of 28 teams and 6 swiss rounds
Day 3 : one group with top10 from group A and top10 from group B (20 teams) + one group of 36 teams.
Day 4 : double elimination 32 teams (with the 20 teams of the first group + top12 from the other group)

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

we were writing the same thing at the same time ...

Nice Talk kev/Polo ...
Sound good
"n'aillez pas les yeux plus gros que le ventre" ;) je like

Nice one guys!

Question though. Say I made top ten on day 1. I can get drunk and play shit polo day 2, because I'm getting in the double elim anyways, right? What I'm asking is whether day 2 affects top 10 teams from two day 1 groups at all?

We think 48 teams is an absolute minimum for the euros. And if we want more countries, and keep a lot of spots for strong countries to keep it competitive, we've got to get up to 56/60/64 teams. My personal bet is 56.

It's really important to fight on second day to have a good rank in the double elim bracket, so if you get drunk, then your stupid.

I think you'll find the top teams won't be getting drunk, they will be using the chance to play the best teams in Europe, and prepare themselves for the final day.

The top group on day two affects the seeding for the top 20, and being in the right part of the draw can make a huge difference to where you place in the end.

Also, forget about powers of 2, like 64 teams, for Swiss. Consider the number of teams on court at the same time. So with 3 courts, it should be a multiple of 6.

Or if you have 2 groups, then it should be a multiple of 12.

The reason for that is so that you have the most efficient use of the courts, and not have the start of a round and the end of the last one overlapping more than they need to.

So I'd suggest 60 teams.

Plausible.

since i play polo and participate any tournament, I try to always play hard irrespectively of first or second day... you will have lot of time to drink after the tournament...

The Bisons

Yeah i've heard this concern before but i don't think it has ever been witnessed. Polo players at this level are are way too serious.

BTW this system was also used in Seattle for WHBPC 2011.

Nice one guys!

Question though. Say I made top ten on day 1. I can get drunk and play shit polo day 2, because I'm getting in the double elim anyways, right? What I'm asking is whether day 2 affects top 10 teams from two day 1 groups at all?

We think 48 teams is an absolute minimum for the euros. And if we want more countries, and keep a lot of spots for strong countries to keep it competitive, we've got to get up to 56/60/64 teams. My personal bet is 56.

Nice one Kev ;)

@ Stan : yes you can get drunk and play shit polo on day 2 but you will finish at place 20. So you gonna play the team which will finish at place 13 (which will be very strong). Place 1 will play place 32, 2 vs. 31, 3 vs. 30, 4, vs.29, etc.
The day 2 serves to determinate the seeds of the double elimination so it's very important.

If you need an exemple : last WHBPC, Beaver Boys had a really bad second day and they played Guardians in the second game of the double elim...

Play polo for Call Me Daddy

I think everyone is grown enough to know about themselves...let each one decide the way they want to play.
But thinking first about the safe, security and respect for other players!

Peace!

MOSAIK Portugal HYENAS

Hi to everyone, hi Sach and hi Polo, hope everyone is ok all over europe and with their Polo skills improved since last time we´ve crossed our ways.
This kind of topic has been an issue and quite sensible since the first day i´ve logged to this site, at first we (Portugal bike community) were really pissed with our "exclusion", cause we could not be allowed to play in the euros by the Euro Polo comuniy, i was in full desagreement with it at first, until someone wrote me an email explaning why that happened (Rick from Berlin, thanks!).
He showed me all the criteries the fact that we hadn´t ever played an international champ, the fact that we had a small polo community by that time, the fact that we had never organized a comp, the fact that we weren´t active in the forums, the fact taht we sucked(True by that time,ehehehe) and on and on.
The thing is...we made it all since that first day, national and international contests, shirts, stickers, grown the scene her, and traveling to all the contests possible and never failing one euro.
As time passed, we were pushed to the wall again, and by now, trying to get the slot as an Iberia (Spain/Portugal). Why? i do not have the answer...
I (and my team) will do it again for sure with all the strenght and passion for BikePolo we have like it´s our first day, but for me...it´s no longer... FAIR!
Peace!

Mosaik

MOSAIK Portugal HYENAS

If that's one slot at least per country, i don't see why Spain and Portugal have to be toghether.

Hi Mosaik, nice to see you here around and participating to the debate with all your kindness and generosity, I hope also everything is OK in PT since the last time we met in Lisboa around West Jam with Polo and co.

Sorry but I think that you must have misunderstood sthg.

If you read carefully all propositions about allocations so far, and also post #51 and 52, you will discover that in fact, nobody wants to exclude nobody, or put together countries against their will, Portugal or any other country, and that Miguel take already care of this for the lusitanian community.

For the cracovian organizers, if I understood them correctly, every "country" willing to participate is free to handle with all its cities/scenes/clubs and teams its qualification process like they want, in a transparent and democratic process, and so, because of the negative experiences last year, they proposed to split the common qualifiers e.g. for UK/Ireland and all the "Mitteleuropa" countries, and to make automatic slots, one minimum for each country.

But of course, if countries want to organize common qualifiers, it's still possible, like we had here in Benelux also in the past, or like our friend from Zaragoza seems willing to conserve; IMO, the country reps have just to state before how to handle the allocation of the slots (e.g. in the case of an possible iberian qualifier, either if you're allowing the slots to the first 4 teams of the competition, independently of the "nationality", giving the possibility to have more than one portuguese team directly qualified if they are strong enough, or 3 to the first 3 spanish teams and 1 to the first portuguese team, even if it's not under the TOP 4).

On the other hand, it is true that it can't be such a thing as a guaranteed slot for every country mapped, that's why I put question marks behind countries from which I never heard about clubs/teams participating to international contests or read comments from autochtone players here on LOBP (but that's just my criteria; in the future, an EHBPA should define clear rules and guidelines), and why we need a allocation process with a certain deadline to get things sorted.

Therefore, I found Kev's idea to start a dedicated thread on LOBP brilliant and saw that Pajac's already took up the ball.

But better let the organisation's committee talk.

Sach I'm not saying that we disagree with this or that, the only point is, we will have to make 1000 km driving to get to Zaragoza qualis, we take a big and unfair disadvantage from the straight begining! We will try to go and reclaim our spot.
Even so i presume if this direct slot is not possible, at least the second porposal is more acceptable, making three slots for the first Spanish teams and the fourth slot delivered to the better qualified team from Portugal!
Peace!

MOSAIK Portugal HYENAS

Mosaik,
I think we made it clear, we want to give EACH country that wants to participate at least one spot, right. No need to worry!

Thanks John for your suggestion, it seems very reasonable. 60 teams is perfect for 3 courts, we haven't decided whether we'll have 3 or 4 courts though!

Stan

Stan, we know you are! Thanks! More specific rules will be needed for the Euros in a near Future! Respect for such a will On hosting this event! Peace

MOSAIK Portugal HYENAS

I only want to conserve it, because the work we are doing to do the best iberian championship, now I understand this things, 3 slots for Spain 1 slot for Portugal is fair!

With 4 courts you want multiples of 8, or 16 (for two rounds). In which case you are back to 64, or 56 ;)

With 4 courts, and 12 hours, 3 days is more than enough time for 64 teams, with the NAHBPC/WHBPC format:
Friday, AM and PM groups of 32 teams on (6 games per team)
Saturday, AM group of 32 teams for the bottom 16 spots (6 games per team, plus playoffs)
Saturday, PM group of 32 teams for the top 32 spots on Saturday (5 games per team).
Then 48 team double elim on Sunday.

Also, will you be able to do the wildcard on the Thursday, as an extra day?

You could easily do up to 64 teams, with 6 games each, in the wildcard, so in that case I'd just make it open to whoever turns up, and you can raise more funds for the tournament (I can't imagine more than 64 teams would turn up for 1 day of polo)

Ok :) Thank you John H for plenty of options. :)
We have gather all the proposals (we keep it in mind) and now we are waiting for the final combination of tournament days / courts number :) When we will be sure for 100% about this two things we will show our proposal and then we will be open for all suggestions :)

Pajac, The Beardless

Hi to everyone,

I'd like to write something from me becouse I'm a part of those people who will organise this event.

@Stan - you are wrong. We have decided how many courts we will build and it was 3. Of course we can put there 4 couts but it wont be so nice like with 3 (less space for everyone, courts touching each other, need more people to handle it). Of course we can discuss it one more time. But i cant see point of it.

Thing is how big the tournament will be (48 teams is minimum), and when we will be able to build the courts. If wisla (the sport club) give us this this spot from wednesday then lets play 60 teams 3days tournament and an extra day for a wild card. If we have to start playing in friday than must be smaller imo.

Thanks guys for your opinions and advices. We have to discuss about it. And sory for my english.

With 3 courts, then yes, 3 days, plus 1 day wildcard would be best (assuming you can do 4 days).

With the NAHBPC/WHBPC format, my suggestion would be something like:

Friday, 2 groups of 30, 5 rounds per group.

Saturday, Day session, bottom 42, 5 rounds, top 14 go through.
Evening session, top 18, 4 rounds

Sunday, top 32 double elim.

Of course, QBA is correct, my bad :)

edit: useless post, didn't read the topic well enough

Hi again

If I got it right 27th June is planned to be the wildcard open tourney.
Not sure if this is the right thread but where / when can we find more info? Something like the number of teams, or if there is any limitations of country origins...
Sorry for press you guys but the later we get plane tickets the harder it G€T$.

Miguel Reis
Thnx

to help us in announce format etc etc faster.. please post your country in http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/tournaments/2013/04/19/claim-your-coun...

Pajac, The Beardless

It all goes official at the beginning of MAY!! All the info will be available online and offline by then.

Question: any preference about the balls? Magic? Fixcraft HOT? Fixcraft canadian? Harvey? Tennis balls?
:) We've tested all options and have our opinions, but wanna hear from the european poloverse.

Magic will happily provide you the tournament balls free (the same applies to most other tournaments, unless excessive postage costs are an issue).

How hot does it get at that time of year?

Harvey balls no longer exist, I'm afraid. They were the only ball I know of that didn't need icing above 30 degrees.

Magic cool and warm balls are really good in my opinion, but can they stand a high heat ? above 25 ? above 30°c ?

Magic warm will need to be iced at 30 degrees and above.

that's plenty enough

As far as I know, no one had a chance to test MAGICs in that kind of heat.

NAH HOTs are great up until 20-25*. Above that you need to ice'em every game.

Still got one pink Harvey's let's pool all the Harvey balls we've got :D

As far as I know, no one had a chance to test MAGICs in that kind of heat.

NAH HOTs are great up until 20-25*. Above that you need to ice'em every game.

Still got one pink Harvey's let's pool all the Harvey balls we've got :D

I just spoke to Harvey, he currently has 20(ish) left in stock of the Super Summer balls (used in Geneva last year and the ONLY ball that seems to work well in 28+ degrees heat).

He's possibly going to put a big order in for more Super Summer balls but doesn't want to get stuck with loads of stock if trends change.

If your summer is only around 25 degrees then any 'normal' ball will do, maybe just have some ice to hand if things get a little hot/squishy?

Jono, It can easily get above 30 degrees at the turn of June/July. We've got to be prepared for that.

John was the first to offer help regarding the balls, we also do have some unused balls, we'll be good.

you have to get Super mother fuckin' hot harvey ball for your tourney in summer, it should be mandatory. All the other balls ask so much attention and make the game really weird when you can't change the ball during a long amount of time (example a 7 minutes games without stop).
The extra fuckin' hot harvey save you so much job, you can play during 20 minutes and still get a decent ball...

uolmo .Clement. wrote:

you have to get Super mother fuckin' hot harvey ball for your tourney in summer, it should be mandatory. All the other balls ask so much attention and make the game really weird when you can't change the ball during a long amount of time (example a 7 minutes games without stop).
The extra fuckin' hot harvey save you so much job, you can play during 20 minutes and still get a decent ball...

We have no more of these balls (other than a couple spare ones from last year). It cost Harvey a lot of time that he doesn't have to produce these for no/tiny profit. If Krakow were willing to pay for the balls like Geneva last year I suppose he could get an order in.

#Polofad

OK, Kids, it's official!

http://www.ehbpc.org/2013/

http://leagueofbikepolo.com/ehbpc-2013-kraków

Awesome, 60 teams, 3 courts, 3 days, perfect.

I noticed you've said you'll use last years ruleset.

With all due respect to Paris, it wasn't the best ruleset I think, the WHBPC was better. Or consider the new Kruse Rules, I'd say that's the best ruleset I've ever seen.

Nice one boys :-)

Thank you John! Well, it's a matter of personal preference, my favorite was last London Open's :)

Where do I find "Kruse Rules"?

Yeah, LO is pretty much the same as WHBPC, plus double goalie, and no forearms.

Kruse Rules: http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/rules/2013/04/21/2013-rules-improvemen...

Nope, Clem's WHBPC rules and our LO2012 rules both started out as NAH v2 drafts, but we took them in different directions.

Agreed they are mainly the same, but there are many differences too. The LO2012 amends (from NAH v2) are shown in red on the below link. (Clem's WHBPC amends from the NAH original are listed in a LOBP thread somewhere too.)

http://www.lhbpa.org/resources/LHBPA_Bike_Polo_Rules.pdf

Might I suggest that for the Euros we should be using the same ruleset that will be used at the Worlds in Florida? Personally I would prefer this to be the Kruse rules rather than the simplified NAH rules, but it might be prudent to ask Florida for guidance and not make decisions too lightly?

Agreed, we probably should use the WHBPC 2013, rules even if that ends up being the NAH ones.

As an official NAH event I guess they will be.

But yeah, maybe ask Florida.

So... have somebody direct contact to Florida? I think that ruleset should be chosen ASAP, to let all the countries play their qualifiers in the same way it will be played in Kraków...

Pajac, The Beardless